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| Base Saiyans vs. Piccolo; Participants: Brofist, and GridZero | |
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| Tweet Topic Started: Jan 11 2013, 08:45 PM (3,347 Views) | |
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Jan 11 2013, 08:45 PM Post #1 |
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Note: If you are not BukLau (GridZero) or Brofist, do NOT post in this topic. Alright, Bro, it's time. First part of this argument I'll begin debunking Kaioshin > Piccolo then move onto Base Saiyans > Piccolo. What's your specific reasoning for said claims? |
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| EMIYA | Jan 11 2013, 09:03 PM Post #2 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Alright then here we go.
Herms himself pretty much says that the line is intending to mean that Kaioshin>Piccolo but he does admit that the line especially from VIZ might indicate a different setting. At the very least Herms is defintely under the impression that Kaioshin is stronger. But let's look at it in terms of "Kaioshin is the god of all gods" Why would Piccolo act so nervous around him if just for that cause? Take for a moment that Piccolo probably at first doesn't realize who Shin is but even before the match start, even before they get into the ring, Piccolo is sweating profusely while Shin has that r*pe face of his own. Then Kaioshin gives one little line and Piccolo gasps and just gives up right there. And at no point did Piccolo ever get anywhere near the confidence in fighting him. The moment the match was called, Piccolo's nervous. Not just a bead of sweat nervous, but in a sauna better take off that turban Piccolo before you melt. So why would just being so high up the "God" heiarchy make Piccolo that nervous? Plus with Canon, there's really only three heirarchys you could argue I think. 1.) Gods over planets (Kami) 2.) Gods over Galaxies (Kaio-Samas) 3.) Gods over Universe (Kaioshins) Look at North Kaio-Sama and Kami. Kami is the god of a small little planet, Kaio-Sama is the god of an entire galaxy and yet I don't recall Piccolo about to wet his pants when he met North Kaio-Sama. It might be one thing if Piccolo was a bit surprised to see Kaioshin, he is the God of Gods after all, but there's no reason to freak out that much just because he is the god of gods. Maybe the Kami-Sama in him was getting out of control. Plus take Goku's line. "“That much, Piccolo?...” Unlike Piccolo, who can at least sense the fact that Shin is a "God of gods" Goku can't, his statement should easily be interpreted as him asking "Kaioshin is that much stronger" and Piccolo pretty much says yes. The Herms translation and Herms himself really supports this and the VIZ lines supports it too though at a lesser case admittingly. Edited by EMIYA, Jan 11 2013, 09:04 PM.
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Jan 11 2013, 09:07 PM Post #3 |
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If we do not assume the "God" argument, then we must assume that Piccolo is sensing a ki far beyond his, right? Just want to clear this up. |
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| EMIYA | Jan 11 2013, 09:09 PM Post #4 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Until you give an argument for it I would say yes. Without the "god" argument Piccolo would be referring to Ki. But I brought up the God argument to discuss its aspect and why it shouldn't effect Piccolo as much as it did. |
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Jan 11 2013, 09:19 PM Post #5 |
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Alright...with that out of they way, I'll prove why we must assume the God argument. Kaioshin and Makaioshin alike simply do not have readable ki by Z Fighter standards. Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P10.2 Context: as Piccolo and Kaioshin's match begins Vegeta: “We’ll finally know: just how much is his battle power, which we haven’t even been able to estimate?...” Now, you might see that and say "Kaioshin was just suppressed up until the point where no one could accuratley estimate his power." However, that would be very hard to argue against after this. Chapter: 450 (DBZ 256), P2.5, P3.1-4 Context: after Kaioshin again warns against unleashing Boo Vegeta: “Hmph…The way things are going, this ‘Majin Boo’ guy isn’t going to be anything special, is he? Just like that ‘Dabra’ jerk…[ ] I’m saying that this ‘Dabra’ guy doesn’t seem as bad as you two feared. Looking at his attacks and movement outside earlier, it seems that if we just watch out for his spit, then we should manage something. I can’t call Kibito anything but a bumbler for getting done-in like that…” Kaioshin: “…Is-is that true, Son Goku?...” Goku: “Yeah…Well, even if that wasn’t him at full force…I think that before he would have been a frightening opponent, but…7 years ago there was a guy called ‘Cell’…[Dabra]’s probably about as strong as him…” The Z Fighters were suppressed to zero when Dabura killed Kibito, at which point Dabura would be expelling a lot of ki, in the context of it being readable, yet neither Goku nor Vegeta can get an accurate measure on his strength. Moving on to Piccolo... Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P10.3 Piccolo: “Wh-why…is it so hard for me to fight him?...Ev-Even though I've only just met him…” I wouldn't say Piccolo is nervous. I'd say something inside of him is pulling him back from fighting Kaioshin. Kaioshin confirms: Chapter: 439 (DBZ 245), P12.1 Context: after Piccolo and Kaioshin's match Kaioshin: “…I see. He used to be this planet’s god…Perhaps he’s somehow started to realize who I am…” In closing, we must assume the "God" argument because there is no ki to be read for Piccolo to be nervous about. |
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| EMIYA | Jan 11 2013, 09:45 PM Post #6 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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I admit that the possibility of the God Argument is there. I certainly wouldn't deny it at all. But to say that Kaioshin can't be felt may be different.
(Expect this quote a lot probably) Dabura has no problem sensing that there are seven people. (Which would include Kaioshin) This also means that Dabura can sense Ki which I'm not sure how you feel about that either. Even Babidi can sense him. There we have an indication that Kaioshin does produce ki and that it can be sensed. What it makes it look like is that Kaioshin's ki has something about it that makes it unique from regular ki, hence how they can use it to power Buu. --- --- Can Kaioshin be supressed, it could be. Once the levels become to diffferent it seems people have a hard time reading the differences. Take for example FP Cell vs SSj2 Gohan. Even though SSj2 Gohan still had a sizable advantage over Cell, both of them were so above everyone else that they couldn't even tell that difference. It was beyond them. But to get to the argument afte rthat. It seemed Goku's measure of dabura's ki was very close actually. Dabura ends up fighting SSJ Gohan (Has some difficulty) which puts him in the Perfect cell range which is what Goku suggested. You can't expect Goku to get a perfect mesasurement on his reading, just an estimation and his estimation was pretty close. Plus Goku, Vegeta (And would have Gohan there but...) both have Super Saiyan and Super Saiyan 2 under their sleeves. Vegeta's own being a good deal better than Gohan's (which is the only one Kaioshin would have felt and then you might get into an argument on whether or not Kaioshin can even sense ki himself) Goku especially seems rather adept in reading the hidden energy beyond his opponent. For example, he also knew that Majin Buu was holding in a huge amount of power. --- --- Well let me ask this because it seemed to me that Piccolo was extremely nervous or something (as you said something was pulling him back from fighting Kaioshin) I suggested that to be Kami. But I think are views on what's nervous and what's very nervous is going to go back and forth so in that case... Was there ever a time before or even in early DB when a person met another person at a higher plain of existence (the god argument as you will) and had the same reaction that Piccolo did? If so I would defintely be more willing to believe the God Argument in such a case. Edited by EMIYA, Jan 11 2013, 09:50 PM.
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Jan 11 2013, 10:02 PM Post #7 |
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I don't believe Dabura can sense ki at all. 1) Dabura flat out says Initial Fat Boo has no power, despite Gohan saying if he goes "all out" he can beat Boo and that he does have "incredible ki", so either Dabura can't sense ki properly, or he's SSJ3 tier. Take your pick. 2) Dabura also thought Pui Pui could beat the Base Saiyans, IIRC. 3) Goku and everyone at that mountain cliff was suppressed to zero. IMO, Dabura can sense either potential, or dormant power, which the Saiyans trump Piccolo with, no argument there from me. If we consider that they were suppressed to zero, that's the only thing Dabura can be sensing.
I don't remember such an instance, but I haven't gotten through the King Piccolo and 23 TB Arcs yet. With that out of the way, can I present the argument for Piccolo > Base Saiyans? |
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| EMIYA | Jan 11 2013, 10:16 PM Post #8 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Dabura sensing Ki is kind of a mix. The quote clearly has him sensing everyone and even if its just potential, it's potential Ki...so regardless he is still sensing Ki. It's the same thing with the Goku line I brought up involving Majin Buu. Goku can sense the hidden ki inside Majin Buu so even if Dabura is referring to just hidden potential, he is still referring to ki. I think its better to say that Dabura can sense ki but he's not as good in it. He's got the basics down at least. But it creates a problems as you'll see. Dabura senses the others on the mountain, he clearly knows there are seven people there. (I'd like to say that putting them at 0 may be a bad idea. If someone has zero Ki, i'm pretty sure that means they're dead) If he's basing it on their potential then why wouldn't he be able to sense the potential in Fat Buu even though Goku can himself? He clearly can sense Ki but in both these instances (and using the potential argument) you have a problem. Base Vegeta>Pui Pui>Initial Pui Pui perhaps? Vegeta may have started using more power at the end of their fight. Not something I'd really try to argue though. --- --- If you do find another moment, just tell me. Until then sure while were still on this you can get to the Base Saiyans vs piccolo argument now. EDIT: Also if Dabura can sense hidden potential...wouldn't that be a huge point that dabura has great ki sensing ability? It's one to sense the ki that is directly put out, but to sense ki beyond what is felt outside shows a great amount of aspect in ki sensing. Edited by EMIYA, Jan 11 2013, 10:17 PM.
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Jan 11 2013, 10:43 PM Post #9 |
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I used to argue this, but it's impossible. If we consider that Dabura can sense hidden potential, thus he has great ki sensing abilities, it would make no sense for him to say that Fat Boo has no power, because he would sense the hidden potential in Boo (Super/Kid), right? Dabura might have the basics down, but problems do occur. For instance, he thinks he can beat all three Base Saiyans after seeing Burst SSJ2 and Goku's SSJ in general. Also, ask yourself this. Why would Kibito and Kaioshin's energy not be of use to Boo? Dabura says it, doesn't he? I just don't believe that they have ki that's measurable or ki that works in the same fashion as the Z Fighters. Oh, and remember that time when Goku launched a ki ball at Elder Kai? Why would he do that if he could read his ki? Keep in mind, Goku was testing him out because he said he was a master, but shouldn't he be sure just by reading his ki? As for Piccolo vs. Base Saiyans, let's take it back to the Cell Saga. Piccolo saw both Vegeta and Trunks get wrecked badly by Perfect Cell. So why does Piccolo need confirmation of this from Goku? Chapter: 392 (DBZ 198), P13.1-5 Goku: “Hey… Piccolo! Did you go into the Room of Spirit and Time?” Piccolo: “Indeed.” Goku: “I can tell! You’ve risen to an entirely different level.” Piccolo: “…Why don’t you just be frank with me? I’ve grown stronger, but even so, it won’t do any good against Cell…” Goku: “…Yeah, it won’t do any good.” IMO, that alone should prove that Piccolo is in that area, or above those people. All depends where you have the Base Saiyans in the Boo Saga. Above USSJ2 Trunks? Edited by GridZero, Jan 11 2013, 10:44 PM.
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| EMIYA | Jan 11 2013, 11:06 PM Post #10 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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USSJ2 Trunks>USSJ Vegeta>USSJ Trunks>Semi-Perfect Cell>>>Imperfect Cell>>>Piccolo. The gap is heavily implied to be such a way so let's say Piccolo trains in the ROSAT. He doesn't have to jump from>>>Imperfect Cell to Inital Perfect cell nor would it make much sense IMO for him to make such a jump either. He has to make a pretty big jump to Imperfect Cell as it is and then another big jump to Semi-Cell (Which is where I think most people put the Base Saiyans) I wouldn't say Piccolo needs conformation either. Piccolo comes out ad Goku's all "Whoa piccolo, you've gotten stronger" which he certainly did. And Piccolo just wants Goku to quit the act because he and Goku and everyone else knows that despite getting stronger he's absolute nothing to Cell. It's not like he goes and asks if he's strong enough, he kows he's weaker and I think he just wants Goku to stop being nice and just say that now. --- --- Reading through Herms I didn't find anything that stated why they couldn't use Kaioshin or Kibito's energy. I at first thought it might be just because Kaioshin's have a strange aspect on Buu's body, like Dai Kaioshin did. Then you get into the South Kaioshin debate which clearly increased Buu's power. All we know is that dabura knows that 7 people are on there, he can tell that Kaioshin and Kibito can't be used and he can tell 3 of them have marvelous energy. Unless they were reading the Kili meter some time earlier, that's ki sensing IMO. As for SSJ Goku and SSj2 Goku, they were technically transported to another world, the aspect of ki sensing there may have been blurred forcing them to use the Kili meter. Dabura I think clealry has shown to have ki sensing, and sometimes its very good ki sensing at that, but then later things seem to contradict it. I believe Kaioshin does have ki that can be sensed but I agree that he does have ki that works differently. |
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Jan 11 2013, 11:13 PM Post #11 |
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Hmm, see, the root of all the problems comes back to my initial argument at the Budokai. (Kaioshin/Makaioshin not having sensable ki) And now that we've gone through this, I can ask. If we assume that Piccolo is sensing ki above his at the tournament, and he's so freaked out by this that he forefeits, why did Goku ask "is it that bad, Piccolo?" Why can't Goku sense that power? |
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| EMIYA | Jan 11 2013, 11:23 PM Post #12 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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1.) Kaioshin is supressed perhaps 2.) His current ki was in such a case not as readable to Goku as it was to Piccolo who with Kami inside of him maybe even be able to sense the aspect of his godhood (Although at first he doesn't realize that). I think there's a part where Vegeta is waiting for their (Piccolo vs Kaioshin) match because he's having such a hard time sensing Kaioshin. This would make the idea that Kaioshin can't be sensed. But of course then Dabura comes out, instantly points out Kaioshin. So we've got a contradiction somewehre along those lines I think. If Dabura can sense Kaioshi (And he does, that's pretty much what were shown) then unless Dabura has some super secret Kaioshin sensor that we don't know about) should the others be able to sense Kaioshin as well? EDIT: I also believe that Piccolo's reaction to Kaioshin was a combination of his power and a combination of his hiearchy. As I mentioned before I don't recall anyone ever having such a reaction just because of a difference in "Heiarchy" alone before. Edited by EMIYA, Jan 11 2013, 11:25 PM.
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Jan 11 2013, 11:39 PM Post #13 |
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Suppressed to a level where Piccolo craps his pants but Goku can't read him yet he's very close to them? I've never really understood the logic behind that one.
I personally don't believe this as nothing indicates that "godhood" radiates power, or gives off chi.
Dabura should be considered in another category as he's a Makaioshin. Some Makaioshin were originally Kaioshin but they switched to evil. I don't think it'd be far fetched to say that one Makaioshin can sense a Kaioshin but beings of the "lower world" can't because of their godly origins.
I don't either, but hierarchy is all that's implied. In other "other dimension" circumstances, someone is radiating chi, like SSJ Goku and Tenshinhan. However, Kaioshin is not radiating chi and Goku can't feel him. The only two answers for this are: 1) Kaioshin has no readable ki, and Piccolo is scared because he's fighting a God who's so far above him in the ranks, the Kami side of him is scared. 2) Kaioshin has "godly" ki, which isn't very supported. Another thing I'd like to bring up to light. Gohan can't get an accurate read on Kibito either. He was never stated to power up, so if we assume Full Power, it proves their ki is unreadable, doesn't it? And you can't make the godly ki argument for Kibito, as he's just an assistant. Kibito is a Shin-jin just as Kaioshin is, but Kaioshin has the...Kaioshin title, as he's a God. Doesn't nothing to his ki. Edited by GridZero, Jan 11 2013, 11:40 PM.
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| EMIYA | Jan 11 2013, 11:54 PM Post #14 |
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"I am the bone of my sword."
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Perhaps, but then how does Piccolo know that Kaioshin is "The God of gods" if he's got nothing to sense? Even if its not direct ki like were used to seeing, if he's got nothing to sense there wouldn't even be a reason for Piccolo to worry. Kaioshin would just be some random person. Yet his stress over it indicated that Piccolo could tell something about Kaioshin. Now if he doesn't have some sort of unique "God" ki, then there's just no reason to freak out. This is a person that Piccolo wouldn't have known and the most that would worry him was his lack of being able to sense Kaioshin, something that wouldn't make him stress out the way he did. Basically Piccolo comes and see's Kaioshin and starts sweating profusely and without even having to tell him, Piccolo just gives up. I don't see how you would do that if you can't sense something whether it's direct ki or a very specialized aspect of ki that might make Piccolo realize Kaioshin is a powerful god. |
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Jan 12 2013, 12:06 AM Post #15 |
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You have to remember that Piccolo only forfeits after Kaioshin reads his mind. Piccolo isn't sure exactly why he's having a hard time confronting him, so IMO, at that time, he begins formulating, then when Kaioshin reads his mind, he confirms it. That's my general theory on the matter. Couple this with the fact that Goku can't sense Kaioshin after Piccolo poops himself and the fact that Gohan can't get an accurate read on Kibito who is the same species/race as Kaioshin yet is not a God, you get the inevitable outcome that Kaioshin and Kibito alike do not have a readable ki by human standards. Dabura is a different matter as he himself is affiliated and was possibly a member of that race at one time and his ki reading is incredibly inconsistent. |
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